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Topic: Xenophobia at ALIPAC (.US) (Read 25683 times)
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iamme
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 1012
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I wasn't forced to take it down...... I volunterally took it down......... So now that is straightened up lets move on please..........  Michael Bob, You are right. The only reason I brought up the other issue was due to the post about Tony´s personal information being posted. Now that he was forced to take it down, and he took it down, I will not speak of it again. Tony.. I´m glad we could help in ensuring that your personal info was taken down. :-) I share iamme's vision of this board where people can discuss without all the nastiness we've seen on other boards. Let's all rise above that and be nice.
Michael has promised to follow the rules. He deleted Tony's personal information on that 'other' site, and has not personally attacked anyone since I asked everyone to be more civil.
Let the past be the past, OK everyone?
I agree with Bob and Michael. No more mention of what he did or didn't do, who forced him or didn't force him, etc., etc. Let's leave the past in the past and be thankful that he was nice enough to pull it down. Egging him more might make him post it up again, and he can. So let's move on please.
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Dee
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Iamme,
All of MCs arguments are ludicrous.
Read this article from Dallas Magazine.
http://www.dmagazine.com/article.asp?articleid=1190
The rule of law issue is bogus. Here are the facts:
"entering the country without documents is a civil violation. It’s neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, as is, say, driving without insurance documents."
"If an illegal entrant is taken to immigration court, the punishment, if so adjudged, is called “removal.” Usually the entrants are allowed to leave voluntarily, avoiding formal deportation. That’s important because re-entry after voluntary departure remains a civil violation,"
So much for their rule of Law argument.
Regarding their Bogus argument re: why don´t they go back and get in line, it would take 12 - 20 years to get back in line and come back in.
This article details the wait:
http://www.nfap.com/researchactivities/studies/NFAPStudyLegalImmigrantsWaitingForever052206.pdf
This url contains a comprehensive study conducted by the “National Foundation for American Policy.” “The National Foundation for American Policy (NFAP) is a non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to public policy research on trade, immigration, education, and other issues of national importance.”
This study says - quote:
Category Waits for Green Card-
Skilled worker and Professionals +5 years
(large backlogs, longer future waits)
Family member sponsorships +11-12 years, Mexico +13-14 years
Spouse or minor child +7 Mexico, other +5
Congress has failed to increase the H-1B Cap in recent years leaving employers with no way to hire new skilled foreign nationals inside the US for many months at a time. Since it can take +5 years or more for a US employer to sponsor a skilled foreigner for permanent residence the availability of H-1B visas is important, otherwise skilled foreign nationals, particularly graduates of US universities, could not work or remain in the US.
So you can see, MOST OF THE ANTI ARGUMENTS ARE NOT TRUE AND ARE MISPERCEPTIONS AT BEST.
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MichaelC45
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We are hitting upon alot of subjects here........ lol
I agree we need to adjust our immigration system but I do not believe we need a whole new immigration bill..... I have read the immigration and naturalization act and it is pretty sound. Just needs to be modified a bit and the government can do this without drafting a whole new bill.
As far as the wait..... that is a different story and should be addressed in a different thread. I will say that we are running out of water here....... 1/4th of all the states in the US were under some type of water rationing last year. What is going to happen if we decide to let more and more immigrants from all over come here in numbers higher then are already set?
Business's are not an easy thing to run... the overhead can be costly and when someone is not playing by the rules and undercuts you because they are not willing to pay that overhead it puts legal business's out of business. I could play that same game with my business here but I have a little more respect for my employee's. I am not going to pay them minimum wage for a job that calls for some kind of skill....... while others here in town use these tactics to undercut business.
How to stop this is not a complex problem but like you said it is a double edge sword.
I do hope Calderon does change things but I have my doubts we will see this in my lifetime. I do think ICE should continue to pick up the criminal element and it is sad that some will get caught in the middle......... but life isn't always fair. To me it's not fair that the ones waiting should have to be penalized and I don't think that the ones here should get to be ahead of the line either. I do believe some should stay but others need to go back and wait in line..... It's only fair....... but I cannot agree to anything about immigration reform until the government proves it can secure the border...... High Tech is not going to secure our borders unless we have the manpower to be there within minutes....... and we won't reach that manpower even when we hit the mark with all the border agents being recruited. Everyone thinks all these new agents will be on the border but that in not true...... they will be filtered through the system and put all over the United States at different posts and doing different jobs which includes office work.....
I have been to mexico a few times and have friends that have villa's there that have invited me to spend time down there..... and these people are hispanic....... in fact mostly all my friends are hispanic and there is nothing I wouldn't do for them. I have been to mexico and find the people there are just like us........ there are good and bad everywhere you go in the world and the US is no exception.
Geezzzz lol we are going to have to split this up as these posts are getting awfully long lol...and I know I have not hit on all the subjects you have mentioned lol
May I suggest we have a thread on business and then one on government ect as to cut down on the how long the posts are.....
It is a fact that people only read maybe the first few paragraphs and then skip the rest..... lol
Take care.
Michael
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iamme
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 1012
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Iamme, All of MCs arguments are ludicrous. Read this article from Dallas Magazine. http://www.dmagazine.com/article.asp?articleid=1190The rule of law issue is bogus. Here are the facts: "entering the country without documents is a civil violation. It’s neither a felony nor a misdemeanor, as is, say, driving without insurance documents." "If an illegal entrant is taken to immigration court, the punishment, if so adjudged, is called “removal.” Usually the entrants are allowed to leave voluntarily, avoiding formal deportation. That’s important because re-entry after voluntary departure remains a civil violation," So much for their rule of Law argument. Regarding their Bogus argument re: why don´t they go back and get in line, it would take 12 - 20 years to get back in line and come back in. This article details the wait: http://www.nfap.com/researchactivities/studies/NFAPStudyLegalImmigrantsWaitingForever052206.pdf This url contains a comprehensive study conducted by the “National Foundation for American Policy.” “The National Foundation for American Policy (NFAP) is a non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to public policy research on trade, immigration, education, and other issues of national importance.” This study says - quote: Category Waits for Green Card- Skilled worker and Professionals +5 years (large backlogs, longer future waits) Family member sponsorships +11-12 years, Mexico +13-14 years Spouse or minor child +7 Mexico, other +5 Congress has failed to increase the H-1B Cap in recent years leaving employers with no way to hire new skilled foreign nationals inside the US for many months at a time. Since it can take +5 years or more for a US employer to sponsor a skilled foreigner for permanent residence the availability of H-1B visas is important, otherwise skilled foreign nationals, particularly graduates of US universities, could not work or remain in the US. So you can see, MOST OF THE ANTI ARGUMENTS ARE NOT TRUE AND ARE MISPERCEPTIONS AT BEST.
Yes Dee, but that is why Tony set up this site, so that we can help inform. We agree with them just about as much as they agree with us and if anyone thinks that they are going to stop the information from coming on this forum, then they are wrong. I'm glad you have this information and Michael can now choose to either accept it or provide evidence that proves other wise. But I don't want to give anyone reason to run these threads off course, and whether Michael is vile in another forum or not is irrelevant to this one. It's not nice to put people in a position where they have to defend themselves by insulting you back, and it's not good for this forum either because then we've got all these people attacking each other and no one is taking in the information. That's not what we want. So far Michael has been civil and has been expressing his views in a polite manner and I would hope that should continue. Please do not give him reason to misbehave. This forum is to share infomation and discuss the issues affecting todays immigration and why we need reform. Soon people will come and I want to make sure that the first thing they see is information and not personal attacks. Believe me, if Michael shows a side of him that I don't like because it affects a thread or this forum, I will be there to make sure it doesn't start a ripple. Then again, that goes for everyone.
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MichaelC45
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Iamme.......... I give you my word I won't do it again so please don't worry about it lol......... I am a person of my word too....... If you take the time to get to know me you will find this out.
Michael
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Dee
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My best to you Iamme.
I´ve conversed with the likes of that one before.
He´s all smoke and mirrors and feeds a line of hot air.
That´s fine and good.
TTFN
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bob1388
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If you can show me in my post where I suggested this please point it out to me........ If you want to debate the criminal element that crosses the border we can do that, as also we can debate all outside the criminal element too........ Anyone who used the word xenophobic about anyone is just being an armchair psychologist......... and before I would believe anyones diagnosis of this disorder, they would have to provide credentials that they have a degree in psychology...... Are you suggesting MC that all people who migrate from the southern border are "criminal elements". If so then the choice word of xenophobia describing ALI-PAC's mental policy is true.
I have observed much xenophobia at ALIPAC, though to MC's earlier point not everyone there is xenophobic or racist. Just like other groups, there is diversity, though the actions of W and his acolytes does drive moderates and certainly pro-legalization supporters away. Xenophobia is not a psycological disorder, just an extreme dislike of all things foreign.
Even more disturbing, there is clearly evidence of paranoia there in the various conspiracy theories. Paranoia is a disorder, which prevents those affected from thinking clearly, grasping the facts, etc.
One good example of both paranoia and xenophobia would be the so-called reconquista theory where Mexico is sending all these illegal immigrants as part of a strategy to reconquier the SouthWest.
Another is the North American Union, where Canada, Mexico, and the U.S. are secretly negotiating a merger of the three nations, to take place without the approval of the U.S. Congress. Both of these theories are just plain absurd and show a certain paranoia.
There's not a credible shred of evidence for reconquista, and the NAU is conjured up based upon nothing more than discussions between the leaders of the three nations about security issues, etc. Leaders of neighboring nations do that all the time.
William Gheen's claim that ALIPAC is under attack by extreme trolls who are trying a "false flag" operation by taking control of ALI-PAC and pretending they are nazi members is another.
Why don't they just ban the IP address of the evil ones? Answer: they have a fund raiser drive underway and need to whip up the hysteria and fear. Why, if ALI-PAC shuts down, W won't get a paycheck and he won't be able to restore our Republic! How aweful! (note the sarcasm here)
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iamme
Global Moderator
Hero Member
Posts: 1012
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My humble opinion is that they are just creating new user accounts and pretending to be something they are not to make it look like the sight is under attack. I mean, if they do/did it at HB, why not pretend on their own sight. Remember those posters we had back when, Guriswald, and some other jokes, who claimed they weren't from Alipac, then went on over there and started posting like they were newbies? I'm not talking about Mdillon, because honestly I do believe Mdillon when he says he's not an Alipacer (I could be wrong but that's how I feel). However, I can usually pick up a persons personality by reading their posts, and when these new people come on at Alipac, some of them have a monotone to them, almost as if the personality is forced. I don't know, but the very fact that they can try to deceive a whole forum and pretend that they are something they are not makes me certain that many of the newbies at Alipac are just long time members with a second account. You do have to admit though, the strategy is good. Make people believe that so many people are joining, sorta of like brainwashing them into believing that if others are doing it why not join the crowd. I mean, go far back and look at how many people all of a sudden claim to have donated and then compare it to the FEC receipts. Since they've started they've only had about less than 10 people donate in what 4 years? They were hefty donations, but that just doesn't match to what they claim that so many people support Alipac.  If people really thought this organization was worth it, you'd atleast see a $20 donation in there or something.
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LaVerdad
Global Moderator
Sr. Member
Posts: 265
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LaVerdad and Bob, Be careful what you say to this guy. Alipac.com started a whole thread called "Alipac Parody." They are doing nothing but making fun of this site. MC wrote private information about Tony. I´ve seen his posts on other forums and he makes plenty of trouble. Very negative. Let me give you examples. He just said he deleted the personal stats on Tony. I just checked and he did NOT delete them http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=53681scroll down to the bottom of the page and there they are. The 3rd to last message. He is pretending to be nice here but here is what he said there: "Public information is just that........... public information......... and no, I cannot get sued for it.............. if he didn't want the information to be public he should have made the website private when it was registered. No law against public information......" and this "Oh and by the way.......... I think it was necessary to post that so William has the information to hand to his lawyer to sue him for using his companies name........ You scammers are all the same........ lol " and he is also a big blow hard: "If you don't want your personal information on the web then be careful where and how you use it........ Remember........ Public information is just that. It's public and anyone can go see it anytime they want, and it's open to all eyes....... I don't charge for lessons for scammers 101 ........ I busted enough of them....... " All of this are just MCs typic evil tactics!! Are you suggesting MC that all people who migrate from the southern border are "criminal elements". If so then the choice word of xenophobia describing ALI-PAC's mental policy is true.
Thanks Dee but I'm not afraid to state what I've heard expressed or to ask questions. MC can try to defend his psychological stance but no one referenced a psychological diagnosis to him PERSONALLY -- MC, please reference my quote above.
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« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 09:35:41 AM by LaVerdad »
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MichaelC45
Guest
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I am not suggesting, nor have I ever suggested that ALL people that illegally migrate here are of the criminal element.......Some are and some are not.
Even some that come here legally have been been associated with the criminal element, but not all of them.
But I don't know how my stance would reflect on the question of ALIPACS mental policy being xenophobia.........
Are you making a group assumption or is this based on some individual posts?
Are you suggesting MC that all people who migrate from the southern border are "criminal elements". If so then the choice word of xenophobia describing ALI-PAC's mental policy is true.
Thanks Dee but I'm not afraid to state what I've heard expressed or to ask questions. MC can try to defend his psychological stance but no one referenced a psychological diagnosis to him PERSONALLY -- MC, please reference my quote above. |
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LaVerdad
Global Moderator
Sr. Member
Posts: 265
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Based on individual Alipac posts.
The mindset does not condone any type of immigration. The rhetoric coming from the Alipac camp highlights America as an "exclusive" nation.
There are many advocacy groups raising money for "legal immigration". These groups have been attacked and subject to scrutiny by the Alipac members. Some members have gone so far as to declare them "racist". Very extreme.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 08:51:34 AM by LaVerdad »
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bob1388
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There have been a huge number of individual posts on ALIPAC that demonstrated xenophobia. Xenophobia is not a psycological disorder, just extreme dislike of all things foreign.
Paranoia can be a psycological disorder, or might just be an irrational fear of something but not a disorder. I consider the reconquista and NAU theories to be paranoid conspiracy theories. Reconquista apparently originated from Barbara Coe, a known white supremacist, and the NAU seems to originate from the John Birch Society, famous for its collection of "commies taking over the United States" conspiracy theories since the 1950s.
W's claim of an extreme troll at ALIPAC seems wild as well. I don't understand why they don't just ban the person. Unless he broke into their computer system I doubt the troll broke any laws. Perhaps its just a coincidence that when they are struggling to meet a fund raising goal and W did not get a paycheck in November and December suddenly they find an extreme troll, and claim there's a false flag operation by fake nazis to discredit them, etc.
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bob1388
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William Gheen will be on radio Monday morning. I wonder if they accept called in or e-mailed questions?
Mon. 2/12/2006
- 8AM EST / 5AM PST "The Morning Beat" with Curtis Wright broadcast on the Big Talker FM in Wilmington, NC Listen online via www.thebigtalkerfm.com
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